As a result, alto-clef players frequently have difficulty tracking down compositions that speak to themmusical jewels that are simultaneously beautiful, engaging, and challenging. This is one of the last pieces the great Hungarian composer ever wrote and it quickly became a staple for viola players. to play a concerto or click on the bold Molly Carr, the violist performing Clarkes Viola Sonata has been the recipient of many top prizes, awards, and scholarships. You can play this when you also play romantic concertos like Mendelssohn and Bruch. and He was inspired by Paganini, Ernst and Vieuxtemps. doubled the five-part voice in fact, the Often cited as the hardest works for solo violin, Niccol Paganinis Caprices make up 24 fiendishly demanding pieces for the string instrument, packed with double stops, left-hand pizzicato and endless spiccato bowing. Here's a violin concerto Top 10 that embraces all the great works at the centre of every violinist's repertoire ranging from the poise of the Mozart via the red-blooded Romantic works like the Tchaikovsky to the modern language of the Shostakovich and Bartk. Esther Birringer has always been inspired by Debussy's magical sounds and his extraordinary power to evoke dreamy atmospheres that allow you to escape time and space. Click on the normal 85 by Max Bruch. "Example? I have to say that, forced into a decision on my favorite viola piece, it would have to be this Mozart work, Cook says. It was during this period (from mid 16th Despite being held as such, not only did his income and employment suffer, but he also died destitutely. 80 percent of schoolchildren say more could be done to engage young people with, 13-year-old Ukrainian refugee plays poignantly on public piano, one year since the war, Mother asks TikTok to play her 10-year-old daughters melody, and a whole string, Blind 13-year-old pianists stunning Chopin nocturne performance leaves Lang Lang, Music takes 13 minutes to release sadness and 9 to make you happy, according to new, Download 'The Magnificent Seven - Theme' on iTunes. The Violist in this video is Simon Truszka. The two some also collaborated on Playing the Viola: Conversations with William Primrose. Paganini will probably be the name you think of first when you think about the most difficult violin pieces. viola concerto listed here, send MOST OVERLOOKED: Rhapsody on Folk Songs Harmonized, by Bla Bartk Tibor Serly;Concerto for Viola and Orchestra, Gyula David. Youll have rosin all over your hands after attempting these virtuosic showstoppers for solo violin. viola: Georg Druschetsky: Concerto for viola and orchestra The Pendereck does seem to be much more difficult than the Bartok, but I like the sound of it! Paganini will probably be the name you think of first when you think about the most difficult violin pieces. His response was the Beethoven concerto . He is a professor of viola at the school and was previously principal violist of the Philadelphia Orchestra. This work, along with his Scottish Fantasy, is one of the most often performed by flashy violin types. See also the history of the viola compositiones including concertos, especially thanks to viola champions Lionel A real find, and not just for viola players and their groupies. their own instrument, therefore we have many violin concertos as the Although the viola is often overlooked by composers, there are a plethora of violists today who perform solo performances. Rachel Barton Pine is a chart-topping violinist who has appeared as a soloist with many of the worlds most prestigious ensembles. creative, but useless. Shes on the board of the American Viola Society and is president of the organizations Utah chapter. 1 in F minor. A devastated Walton . He was the eldest son of Johann Stamitz, a violinist and composer of the early classical period.Born in Mannheim, he received lessons from his father and Christian . Viola players have contributed to classical music ever since Mozarts time and that is even more true in this day and age. 10. 2 William Walton Viola Concerto 1929 Play. Czardasz (Full Version) Mozarts Sinfonia Concertante is a piece for violin, viola and orchestra in which the violin and viola have equal billing. Ernsts work includes very difficult variations on this melody with lots of double stops where it seems you hear two violins play and also arpeggios where the violin accompanies its melody with chords. people and even music lovers, unless they Sedimentations for Viola, Marimba and Chamber Ensemble, Charles Nichols: similar to the sonata form: Here I'll list the more significant Reply. Carl Stamitz Viola Concerto in D major, Op.1. I could have chosen various works, like his 24 caprices, 'I Palpiti' or 'Nel cor pie non mi sento'. 9. Could someone point me toward unsung viola concertos (which aside from Bartok and a few others is probably most of them!). and how difficult is it considering that we are looking at the rondo movement alone, not just the entire symphonie espagnole? Reserved for the greatest virtuosos, Jean Sibelius only concerto is undoubtedly one of the most intense and difficult violin concertos ever written. Since it's a Jean Sibelius creation, it's best for solo virtuoso performance. If you like what we do, please make a donation in support of our work. Register now to continue reading Thank you for visiting Gramophone and making use of our archive of more than 50,000 expert reviews, features . She received a Bachelors Degree in Music from The Juilliard School. 6. This violin concerto includes lightning fast virtuosic runs, double stops, difficult bowing techniques like ricochet and long up-bow staccato, arpeggios and more. Play the violin part of the Concerto for two violins in D minor, BWV 1043, with an orchestral accompaniment. He wrote it in the summer of 1777. form, involving a larger group of performers forming a contrast Buy Viola in Music's Collection of13 famous tunesRead more. It lays well on the viola, she says, adding that the work is virtuosic and satisfying to perform. The rhythmic work will take your breath away. first and William Primrose later. 7. 1-20 of 1229 Free Viola Sheet Music. refer to an ensemble of voices getting together with music. to the Home page, Telemanncomposed the first viola concerto, Bach's Brandenburg Concerto 6 for 2 solo violas, Play-along accompanied by your own orchestra, Paganini kisses Berliozs hands after hearingHarold in Italy, Symphony with solo viola,originally composed for him. The music of many of the historic violin virtuosi-composers is often passed off as physical exercise, rather than beautiful music. In addition, he was considered by his temporaries to be both a traditionalist and an innovator. was characterized by the Vivaldi on viola damore Rachel Barton Pine. 100 Most Difficult Piano Concertos. It will totally worth of your time. Arad also composes works for viola, violin, and string quartet. Required fields are marked *. He premiered his own viola concerto, Concerto per la Viola, in 2005first in Bloomington, Indiana with Uriel Segal conducting, then later the same year in Brussels, Belgium, with Ronald Zollman conducting. with a smaller group of players or a solo instrument player, or various ***PATREON LINK****https://www.patreon.com/calebhuHelp me post something cool at least every month since none of my content is monetized ripTURN ON CAPTIONS . Cook has performed with the New York Philharmonic, the London and Chicago Symphony Orchestra. 1 In G Minor. Geez, Joachim #2 isn't thaaaat difficult#1 is from a more immature Joachim and is a bit worsethough not nearly as impressive as the #2 of course ;-). Percussion and Piano, Mark Gresham: 3 Essays for Viola and String Orchestra, Gustav Holst: Lyric movement, with small orchestra, Arthur Honegger: Praeludium, Arioso & Fughetta on Other virtuosos were performers such as Chopin, Liszt Although he ended up destitute, Carl Stamitz composed many symphonies and concertos for not only viola and viola damore, but also for violin, cello, clarinet, flute, bassoon, basset horn, and oboe. The music explores the inner life of a child and mother, their special relationship, and the rhythms of their lives together in a way I have never heard in music before, Bigelow says. She has long championed the viola works of violist and composer Rebecca Clarke and such other 20th-century British composers such as Sir William Walton and York Bowen. 59, # 3. Well, off the top of my head, the Penderecki viola concerto is way harder then Bartok. Of course, more and more concertos are being composed nowadays, so if Bruch wrote a couple of gorgeous concertos: it was a toss-up between Violin Concerto No.1 In G Minor and the Scottish Fantasy for this top spot on the . Beethoven looks to me easier than these two. Daz was also principal violist of the National Symphony (under the direction of Mstislav Rostropovich), a member of the Boston Symphony (under Seiji Ozawa), and a member of the Minnesota Orchestra (with Sir Neville Marriner). Violin Lounge 2021 | Ad majorem Dei gloriam |, discover the 5 secrets to a professional sound. With Beethovens chamber music we have an opportunity to express ourselves so completely., MOST OVERLOOKED: Viola Concerto in A minor, Gyula David ; Viola Sonata in G, Arnold Bax ; Romantic Fantasy for Violin, Viola, and Orchestra, Arthur Benjamin ; Pulse Aria/Achoo Lullaby for Viola, Live Electronics, and Tape, Stephen Andrew Taylor. Elgar's cello concerto has na almost human tone in a cello composition. ALL-TIME FAVORITE: Romeo and Juliet, Sergei Prokofiev. Fine playing from Lawrence Power. Technically the chords and string crossings make it difficult. He serves as orchestra and chamber-music director of the OK Mozart Festival. Although the viola had far fewer solos, this was mainly due to the lack of violists. Quote from: tcutler on Friday 30 September 2011, 20:24, Quote from: chill319 on Monday 03 October 2011, 01:28, http://www.amazon.com/Dmitri-Klebanov-Japanese-Silhouettes-Concerto/dp/B00000083X/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1317736703&sr=1-1, http://www.amazon.com/Soviet-Russian-Viola-Music-Kryukov/dp/B0030UO9QS, http://kennethmartinson.com/pdf/review_column_10.pdf. Recorded by Bernstein and the NY Philharmonic with the Camerata Singers under Donald McInnes. He later held musical appointments and ended up teaching eventually. Sperger: Concertino for Flute, Viola and Double Bass in D major, M.B.27 Mozart. It contains his famous Funeral March, but also an unbelievably challenging first movement. Himself a virtuoso violist, Prtos knew how to offer a full display of the instruments expressive and technical capabilities. was a literary and artistic movement started in Germany and flourished Clarks sonata tied for first place out of seventy-two entries. A native of Hawaii, Watras began studying piano at age five, and soon took up the viola, making her debut as a 16-year-old soloist with the Dayton Philharmonic Orchestra. Beethoven dedicated his Sonata No. From the beginning of the 18th century the Enjoy! concertos for viola, although they are not At the same time it should sound with a certain serenity like it isnt difficult. She was recently a member of Mark OConnors Grammy Award-winning Appalachia Waltz Trio (along with cellist Natalie Haas). Below are 10 viola pieces you should know. Ligeti was a madman when it came to composing for the violin. Top 10 viola works Duncan Druce Thursday, January 15, 2015 The viola as a solo instrument really came into its own in the 20th century. He premiered his own viola concerto, Concerto per la Viola, in 2005first in Bloomington, Indiana with Uriel Segal conducting, then later the same year in Brussels, Belgium, with Ronald Zollman conducting. I picked out hardest violin pieces from as much different periods and performers as possible: baroque, romantic, modern, solo and orchestral pieces, new and older recordings. Concerto in E minor Op.85 for viola and piano by Edward Elgar skill level: high. PDF. Some of his viola and clarinet concertos are particularly well-liked and well-known. Whether it be a work written especially for the viola, like Atar Arads viola sonata, or a transcribed piece, such as one of Bachs gamba sonatas, each can provide a learning and emotive experience for the viola playerand his or her audience. Free Violin Sheet Music. links in the following list if you want to buy the sheet music This poster will show the exact spots of all notes on the violin and viola! 1), Oedoen Prtos, In November of 2006 in Tel Aviv, Israel, Arad gave his two first performances of this composition, accompanied by the Buchmann-Mehta School of Music Symphony Orchestra, Zeev Dorman conducting. Best Viola Concerto: Bartok, Viola Concerto. for one solo instrument He ended up having numerous works to his credit. The viola is often seen as the awkward child of the string family (and the butt of everyones jokes). Viola Concerto, Sz. String playing is the greatest. It is the epitome of the Romantic-era violin concerto, with lots of sweeping themes and zippy melodies, and an exciting finish. 21. It has all Bartks trademark rhythmic creativity with plenty of heart-rending melodies thrown in. "Mozart was one of the first composers to liberate the voice of viola by writing six string quintets . It also tends to be a bit notorious, as well, as it seems to be mostly disliked by viola players. It is a beautiful piece in the classical style of Haydn and Mozart, with lovely melodic lines passed back and forth between violin and viola, she says. the first known viola concerto Telemann, read about it. We can easily compare to the hardest viola repertoire, but from my point of view, Walton or Hindemith concertos are much more difficult! Bachs Partita in D minor was his what he chose to play. Both works have a Hungarian flavor, of course, Dalton says. Passages of music are often punctuated with the musical equivalent of battle scenes, which generally involve brass and percussion instruments. Wine, blood, joy and rage miingle in mutual intoxication and make music together. This collection of short pieces for viola and piano, whose title translates as Fairy Tale Pictures, showcases his beautiful ear for a good tune. Discover the best of Violinist.com in these collections of editor Laurie Niles' exclusive interviews. viola and orchestra. Bach is known to have occasionally taken credit for his fathers work, but it was common practice during that era for musicians. It's hard to understand Tertis's complaint that it was too 'modernist', as the work is . MOST OVERLOOKED: Romeo and Juliet, Sergei Prokofiev, Callus all-time favorite viola work doubles as a piece that she feels is often overlooked by violists. apparently it Carl Philipp Stamitz (Czech: Karel Stamic; baptized 8 May 1745 - 9 November 1801) was a German composer of partial Czech ancestry. This is a work that really put composer William Walton on the map. This is the case with the Concerto n 2 in E Major, a strong and poignant work. Skip to main content (Press Enter). Kim Kashkashian is a Grammy-award winning Armenian-American violist. For those living in alto clef, here are some of the best loved, and most overlooked, viola works of all time, as chosen by 11 top viola players. He described it as not just one of the greatest pieces of music ever written, but one of the greatest achievements of any man in history. One of the most difficult is Chopin Sonata number 2. It is very lyrical and full of soulful, plaintive melodies as well as heartbreaking emotion, Cook says. Bigelow would like to hear more people play the Benjamin. 20, No. The hardest violin pieces have lightning fast runs high up the fingerboard, tricky left hand pizzicato passages, lots of double stops and chords and harmonics. He is also the violist in the Diaz Trio, which includes his brothers, a cellist and a violinist. by composer from piano part) Esphai - concerto. The list below already contains a quite large The only violinists of record calling the Tchai unplayable (ofwho knows how manyvirtuosi) was the same guy who published his own "improved" version that is harder to play and the taught his students to play it. Yes, there are works far harder than that, but it seems that no matter what a composer writes, someone somewhere will find a way to play it.". Zeyringer. He has received numerous awards, including prizes at the Naumburg and Munich international viola competitions. like a red, red roseSportsmans hornpipeThe road to LisdoonvarnaDanny Boy (Londonderry Air)Iron legs, Manuscript of the first page of the Viola concerto in D major by Franz Anton Hoffmeister. Heinrich Wilhelm Ernst is not the biggest name in classical music, but his The Last Rose Of Summer is notorious among violinists for being a complete nightmare to play. It is absolutely beautiful.. Just to name one reason-the hardest thing for me when I started to play Mendelssohn was all the double stops. almost no double stops in the Beethoven!! Piano Sonata No 2 in B Flat Minor - Chopin. Being a big fan of Paganini, Ernst loved including some impossible left hand pizzicato in his music. Arad also composes works for viola, violin, and string quartet. Britten - Lachrymae (orch. Best Beginner String Quartet: Hadyn, String Quartet Op. I'm a little surprised no one has said the Tchaikovsky. Virtual World Tour tickets out now! During the piece the pair battle evil giants (in reality, windmills) and fight off an advancing army (a herd of sheep). I much prefer the Walton Viola Concerto (hardly unsung perhaps) to his better known Violin Concerto and your old friend Edmund Rubbra also comes to mind. ALL-TIME FAVORITE: The Late String Quartets, Ludwig von Beethoven, I am deeply touched by [Beethovens] music, how the voices interact with each other, and how all voices become inner voices at certain points, Bigelow says. Such works are: Classicism is a musical period Unfortunately, when it was finished, Tertis rejected it and it was Paul Hindemith who gave its first performance, which was greeted with much enthusiasm, bringing Walton to the forefront of British classical music. Brahms viola sonata op. MOST OVERLOOKED: The Three Gamba Sonatas, Johann Sebastian Bach. The viola has a long and distinguished history as part of the violin family. Vivaldi's best-known work The Four Seasons, a set of four violin concertos composed in 1723, are the world's most popular and recognised pieces of Baroque music. Kancheli has lived in Western Europe ever since the Soviet Union was dissolved in 1991. [This] is my absolutely favorite piece, Callus says. To help uncover these hidden gems, we queried eleven well-known violists and asked them to share their all-time favorite viola work, as well as a beloved unknown or overlooked piece. is a Baroque one, by Georg Phillip She had moved to the United States to try supporting herself with a career as a soloist after being disinherited by her father. the term Baroque, music historians refer to a period that roughly goes Indeed, for 35 minutes the viola is in the center of the universe.. Virtuoso violinists started to write concertos for 1pm - 4pm, Concerto in C major for 2 Oboes Opus 9 No.9 (3) After which he toured as a virtuoso, but had little success. i guess those composers have way too much free time and/or don't have to worry about making a living. Debussy's Magical Sounds. Your comments should have a little more research before you bluntly state things. many of them. concertante) role with other Bach found the inspiration for writing some of his works in Vivaldi's Concertos for violin, Opus 3 in particular. The most famous Hi guys, . also. i'm currently working on the rondo of lalo's symphonie espagnole. Carl Stamitz received lessons from his father as well as his fathers successor as Mannheims orchestra leader, Christian Cannabich. #1 Best Viola Sonata: Sonata for Viola and Piano . It has a rich voice and is tuned to the notes C, G, D . Of course the type of difficulties is a bit different, so it differs per student what repertoire they find comparable in difficulty.. You are free to have an opinion which violin pieces are really the hardest and why. Hes supposed to have said: You are the only one I can trust for the task.. Arad explains that from the first stages of his work on this piece, he experienced a strong personal bond with the work. Audiences respond generously to these viola works that are colorful, tuneful, and often brilliant, he says. 1. It was said that he was the greatest prodigy ever besides Mozart. Later, the word Concerto came to indicate a particular Melia Watras has performed worldwide and has appeared as a soloist. Soon the composers started to write music exploiting the Nathan Cole of the Los Angeles Philharmonic has drawn up a list of the concertos that are hardest for a player to get going. Many people know Atar as a fabulous viola soloist and chamber musician. It is always very well received. He adds that it is almost 15 minutes in length and is wonderful for viola and piano. Sperger: Eighteen concertos Hoffmeister: One more concerto D. J. Kneissel: One concerto (unpublished) B. R. Roslaub: One concerto . with orchestra: Would you prefer to share this page with others by linking to it? In my cd collection I have Viola Concertos by: there's also an unrecorded 2nd viola concerto by Holmboe. Even though Chopin did not write a lot of piano sonatas, all of them are incredibly difficult. Walther feels that these three pieces can teach a lot to violists. Here they There are several Bartok is not the most difficult viola concerto Agreed, it's just the most played. All the concerti except for the Berio were written for her, and she hopes that other violists will perform these works. It has only just recently begun to record again but is yet to be seen on the concert stage. with the piano. 2. It has all Bartk 's trademark rhythmic creativity with plenty of heart-rending melodies thrown in. as an engineering student who constantly have to think about efficiency and practicality, i'd say that is a complete waste of time with no real contribution to the musical world. The main source of music now for solo viola would be in new music, he says. Of course there are many more and it was hard to make this selection. ever composed (even if never published), found, kept in libraries, out Elgar - Cello Concerto in E Minor. They are taking ideas and inspiration and putting them down into music to share with you. (Julius Hainauer seems to deserve to have a full biography written of him, I think, judging from the various hats he wore and things he did that I have read about- not "just" a publisher of music he- or even just a publisher; but that is more tangential than I have ever never mind ), A real gem is the Klebanov viola concerto (Essay Recordings, Philharmonia Virtuosi New York) (. It makes one of the most remarkable pieces for romantic violin and orchestra performances. We have such a small and limited repertoire that we are always searching for possible hidden gems, says Lawrence Dutton, violist for the Emerson String Quartet. The viola is a string instrument that is generally played using a bow, but it can also be played used various other techniques. There was no better way for me to speak to her one last time, he says. for the piano, the double bass player Bottesini just to name a few. The viola has the same basic construction as the violin but is larger in size, heavier, and strung with both heavier and less responsive strings. Violinist.com Interviews Volume 1, with introduction by Hilary Hahn, Violinist.com Interviews Volume 2, with introduction by Rachel Barton Pine, Bartok is not the most difficult viola concerto. Movements of Bach's sonatas and partitas for solo violin for more advanced violinists. Musically, it Arad remembers performing the Sinfonia Concertanteknown for its warm expressiveness and engaging dialog between the violin and viola soloistsjust one day after his mother passed away. Though afterward Clarke hardly composed more music, her Viola Sonata debuted and was very well received, representing the height of her career. 8. violin was the undisputed protagonist of the musical scene, together Its such amazing music. Callus suggests the arrangement by legendary Russian violist Vadim Borisovsky. Here are some of our favourite pieces of classical music for the viola. It says nothing about if no one could or could not play it at the time. it's considered as comtemperary, right? Concertos for Violin and Piano Nos 1 - 5 by Seitz. differences in players' skills, alternating the whole ensemble (ripieno or filling) to a He actually premiered many of his own works as a virtuoso pianist. you are a composer who wrote and published a concerto for viola or a player I was also under the impression the Schoenberg was the most difficult. In 1919, a competition was sponsored by Clarkes neighbor, Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge. It carries the dedication To Christabel. [When] I first heard the opening theme of the Walton Viola Concerto, it affected me as a siren song. Serly - concerto. Maybe the influence of his teacher Vaughan Williams is not as assimilated as in his wonderful Third Symphony (actually an earlier work) - but it is still a very fine work. Here's a good question for this thread-. Add to cart $12.75 or Enjoy it as a Member $0.00 (free) 3. Meanwhile, this Italian musical form became known in of the so-called violin family rise of many virtuoso performers of nearly all instruments. What makes this piece difficult are the endless arpeggios on tricky chords high up the violin. 10. very well known. It is virtuosic of the highest order and incredibly beautifulwe really need something like this in the repertoire.. I was lucky enough to study the piece with [Arad], and record it for my first CD, so its a very special piece for me., MOST OVERLOOKED: Sonata for Viola and Piano in Bb major, Op. Actually a Morceau de Concert, Hubay's opus 20 (not, I think, called Concerto by the composer- a distinction considered important on IMSLP, at least) composed in two parts (1884-1888) and published by Hainauer of Breslau. Bartok is not the most difficult viola concertoand it is by far easier then the violin concerto. The Romantic era (c. 1790-1915) Between the Romantic and the Classical concerto there occurred no such marked, relatively abrupt changes in form or style as were observed earlier here between the Classical and the Baroque concerto. cello concertos ranked by difficultymary calderon quintanilla 27 februari, 2023 . Viola player Jennifer Stumm has said of the piece: Rebecca Clarke re-established the instrument as something that could be soft and feminine and wild and powerful and much more like a jazz singer., For the viola it's a hugely important piece. Concerto for Viola and Strings, Eufonia o la citt musicale (in Italian), Treatise on instrumentation and orchestration, Harold in Italy, Symphony with solo viola, I help viola & violin players play freely. They sound like they were written for the instrument, especially when you play them with harpsichord so that you arent having to produce a big sound all the time and you can lighten up.. Walton's terrific Concerto was written in 1929 for English violist Lionel Tertis - as many viola works were at the time - though he promptly pooh-poohed it, handing premiere duties over to composer and fellow viola player Paul Hindemith (see below). The melody, scored in a jaunty 3/4 time, jumps between an open D string and some terrifyingly ultrasonic pitches up on the E string. Walton: Viola Concerto. Including a violin and viola chart, audio files and tutorial video! Yet, there are more ALL-TIME FAVORITE: Concertpiece for Viola and Piano, George Enescu, This is one of my all-time favorite pieces, Chiang says. Though not rigorously difficult, technically speaking, there are passages and pages that will challenge the player. 1pm - 4pm, The Magnificent Seven - Theme all over Europe from about 1820-30 for about a century. Learn how your comment data is processed. However, Before then, she had been principal violist of the San Francisco Symphony for 29 years. We provide you with the latest breaking news and videos straight from the music industry. This is one of the last pieces the great Hungarian composer ever wrote and it quickly became a staple for viola players. Elements for Viola and String Orchestra, Joke Kegel: This piece had been commissioned by William Primrose, a respected violist, who felt Bartok wouldnt be perturbed by the violas limitations and would deliver him a challenging viola piece. Schumann didnt leave any clues about what each piece describes, so what actually happens in these fairy tales is up to the listener. Most fascinating to me in Song of Praise is the composers considerable self-indulgence, a possible flaw in any other piece of music, Arad says. Heinrich Wilhelm Ernst is not the biggest name in classical music, but his 'The Last Rose Of Summer' is notorious among violinists for being a complete nightmare to play. He is widely regarded as one of the best violinists of the twentieth century. In addition to Kashkashian having won many awards, she is currently teaching at the New England Conservatory with several of her students going on to have successful careers of their own.
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